tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519912440753252776.post984399083333840488..comments2023-06-12T17:08:36.320+01:00Comments on How Publishing <i>Really</i> Works: Dashes And EllipsesJane Smithhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03411253302725735470noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519912440753252776.post-51971806986321582212009-09-26T14:47:55.022+01:002009-09-26T14:47:55.022+01:00The big debate I've seen with typesetters is w...<i>The big debate I've seen with typesetters is whether the ellipsis sets as an ellipsis character (abominable!), sets as three periods with flexible space between them, or sets as three periods with fixed-width space between them.</i><br /><br />There is some information on this debate on:<br /><br /><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellipsis#In_English" rel="nofollow">Wikipedia on Ellipsis in English</a><br /><br />Apparently Bringhurst is one of the ones pushing for narrower spaces between the dots. I tried his thin-space method and it looks awful.Derekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07161696211557610509noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519912440753252776.post-91070494919648816822009-09-26T02:30:04.176+01:002009-09-26T02:30:04.176+01:00Punctuation, Victor Borge's memorable take on ...Punctuation, Victor Borge's memorable take on this fascinating subject:<br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lF4qii8S3gwMaggie Danahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09397320196343147825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519912440753252776.post-25115269981294552602009-09-25T23:51:58.420+01:002009-09-25T23:51:58.420+01:00Is anybody else hearing Victor Borge now?Is anybody else hearing Victor Borge now?Daniel Blythehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07487799866651688342noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519912440753252776.post-56116068941351107872009-09-25T20:10:41.764+01:002009-09-25T20:10:41.764+01:00I really love you for this. Like Sally, I would lo...I really love you for this. Like Sally, I would love to see more. Perhaps on colons? More people seem to know how to use semi-colons; few seem to realize that the colon is for more than kicking off a list.<br /><br />(Also, I think I am nominating you for <a href="http://wordnerdarmy.blogspot.com/2009/09/word-nerd-army-award-for-knightly.html" rel="nofollow">Word Nerd Knight of the Month</a> if you don't mind. In the link post is a shiny graphic here barred by tag restrictions and the rules, foremost of which is writing about the issues discussed on the blog.)Devious Medievalisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03259025533791972105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519912440753252776.post-59798220325598783972009-09-25T19:12:31.338+01:002009-09-25T19:12:31.338+01:00Hi Jane,
I worked for Avon Books, then HarperColl...Hi Jane,<br /><br />I worked for Avon Books, then HarperCollins, from 1994-2008. I currently head the production department at a university press.<br /><br />Regarding the publishers who request no space in front, but a space after: are you talking about the manuscript? That may well be a useful format for them to work with at that stage. However, what happens in the typesetting stage may change the actual, technical, what's-on-the-page characters.<br /><br />And of course as you say, there are different house styles. There may even be different styles within one (large) house, specialized for particular imprints.<br /><br />The big debate I've seen with typesetters is whether the ellipsis sets as an ellipsis character (abominable!), sets as three periods with flexible space between them, or sets as three periods with fixed-width space between them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519912440753252776.post-35333109118909403862009-09-25T16:53:48.358+01:002009-09-25T16:53:48.358+01:00You're right, consistency is crucial!
I just...You're right, consistency is crucial! <br /><br />I just finished my novel (it's my dissertation for my MA creative writing) and spent the last day performing punctuations-searches. I had so many unnecessary colons and semi-colons! <br /><br />I can't imagine what editing must have been like without a computer!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05935543648023029783noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519912440753252776.post-38750473712823737502009-09-25T15:15:52.954+01:002009-09-25T15:15:52.954+01:00Thanks, actually. I like this kind of information...Thanks, actually. I like this kind of information. Although I do have a handbook pertaining to this sort of thing on my shelf.Annehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13093311660280827999noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519912440753252776.post-25980103383647351742009-09-25T08:50:04.891+01:002009-09-25T08:50:04.891+01:00I am slightly deliciously ashamed to say that I lo...I am slightly deliciously ashamed to say that I loved this post. I now realise that because I am lucky enough to have publishers/editors who don't care what I do about these things because they sort them all out for me, I've missed out on a whole new feast of possible pernicketiness. Euwgh, I don't like those double hyphens either. I like dashes, whether em or en, as long as they're consistent, and am upset to see that I do the wrong thing with ellipses, whether I stay this side of the pond or not ... Oh dear, slap on wrist and big thanks to my long-suffering editors.Nicola Morganhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12189894289540344094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519912440753252776.post-9126250738245010622009-09-25T07:57:01.680+01:002009-09-25T07:57:01.680+01:00Eek. The ellipsis is one of my favourite lazy habi...Eek. The ellipsis is one of my favourite lazy habits and I spend far too much of my life editing them out. Thank you Jane for the image of the spider vomiting over my work. I shall think several times in future before dotting at all!Vanessa Gebbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09088301040602803489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519912440753252776.post-36613211746964857542009-09-24T23:33:47.945+01:002009-09-24T23:33:47.945+01:00And to think Jane just invited me to wade into the...And to think Jane just invited me to wade into the murky waters of en- versus em-dashes. Right there, we have a whole argument waiting to happen, further complicated by British versus US usage ... (hah!!! elipses alert) which is even FURTHER complicated by the fact that I'm a Brit who designs and typesets books in the US.<br /><br />There is no justice here. No right or wrong way. That said, the eye is judge of it all. What looks right for one may not look right to another, and dammit, Jane, I've already had a glass of wine ... do you expect me to give up another for the sake of an eliptically dashing argument?Maggie Danahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09397320196343147825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519912440753252776.post-1469318367151075552009-09-24T22:04:29.831+01:002009-09-24T22:04:29.831+01:00LOL @ punctuation spider!
:-)
This is very helpf...LOL @ punctuation spider! <br />:-)<br /><br />This is very helpful.Chris Eldinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16732006129353079344noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519912440753252776.post-64170370399203154982009-09-24T21:50:41.849+01:002009-09-24T21:50:41.849+01:00And yet the publishers I've worked for don'...And yet the publishers I've worked for don't want spaces between the dots, and nor do they want one before the whole kaboodle... I love a good punctuation rant.<br /><br />One thing I do agree with Barbarienne on, however, is this:<br /><br />"The trick is getting this space to equalize and not have ellipses breaking at the ends of lines."<br /><br />Eugh. Broken ellipses are horrible creatures indeed, and must be avoided no matter what.Jane Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03411253302725735470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519912440753252776.post-18084986454048078872009-09-24T21:04:15.900+01:002009-09-24T21:04:15.900+01:00The way barbarienne describes it is the way it'...The way barbarienne describes it is the way it's specified in the Chicago Manual of Style.Derekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07161696211557610509noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519912440753252776.post-41030327232231271642009-09-24T20:37:37.836+01:002009-09-24T20:37:37.836+01:00"an ellipses", indeed. Somebody shoot me...<i>"an ellipses", indeed. Somebody shoot me, now.</i><br /><br />Aah, my eyes! ;)<br /><br />Regarding spaces before, after, or between the dots, I've always done so the way barbarienne described above. But I'm just a writer, not an editor. This debate intrigues me, though.Lydia Sharphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15328254761920829040noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519912440753252776.post-28786611625142791252009-09-24T20:28:58.188+01:002009-09-24T20:28:58.188+01:00Bugger.
I hate this new black keyboard, which sto...Bugger.<br /><br />I hate this new black keyboard, which stops me from seeing what I'm typing. <br /><br />"an ellipses", indeed. Somebody shoot me, now.Jane Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03411253302725735470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519912440753252776.post-22427668362082058712009-09-24T20:27:32.222+01:002009-09-24T20:27:32.222+01:00Barbarienne, thank you so much for taking the time...Barbarienne, thank you so much for taking the time to comment here: it just shows how opinions vary on this particular subject (and yes, I'll admit to feeling thrilled about the possibility of a punctuation flame-war happening here...). <br /><br />Every publisher I've worked for has wanted a space after an ellipses, but none in front of it.<br /><br />I've edited for American and British publishers, so I don't think that's an English preference.<br /><br />Do you work for any particular publisher? I'm not picking holes here, I just want to know which ones prefer this the way you say.<br /><br />Incidentally, in Teresa Nielsen Hayden's book, "Making Book", she makes it clear that at Tor the house style is for NO spaces either side of the ellipsis, no matter what surrounds it. I find that remarkably inelegant, no matter how fan-girly I feel about the wonderful Mrs N H (and Tor, of course).Jane Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03411253302725735470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519912440753252776.post-78746405432975474772009-09-24T20:16:53.389+01:002009-09-24T20:16:53.389+01:00Lydia, I'm a little concerned now. Because wh...Lydia, I'm a little concerned now. Because when I read your comment my first thought was that we should just get a room. <br /><br />And Nicola, see? You should just trust me. I know what I'm doing (so long as I'm sober, so that only allows a very small window...).Jane Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03411253302725735470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519912440753252776.post-56707975639853491782009-09-24T20:16:21.006+01:002009-09-24T20:16:21.006+01:00As a production professional, I must disagree with...As a production professional, I must disagree with what you have said regarding ellipses and the spaces around them.<br /><br />My preference, both as designer/typesetter and production editor, is to have space fore, aft, and in between the dots. The trick is getting this space to equalize and not have ellipses breaking at the ends of lines.<br /><br />When an ellipsis falls in the middle of a sentence, the notion of having no space before and a space after is just...weird. (When typing, I use no spaces. That is not the same as typesetting book pages.)<br /><br />As for a practical approach when an author is preparing a manuscript? Don't worry about it. Just be consistent in whatever you do. The production people are used to having to fix this particular problem. We assume no author, ever, will get it right.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519912440753252776.post-15700292803005932052009-09-24T19:49:49.847+01:002009-09-24T19:49:49.847+01:00"But when I type two hyphens into Word it aut..."But when I type two hyphens into Word it automatically converts them into an em-dash for me, so my mss never look like that."<br /><br />Well! You should have said, all those times I've whined at you over the years! I tried it in Word and it works. I might do that, if I remember.Nicola Sladehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03076176253820195827noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519912440753252776.post-30567205307162537952009-09-24T19:47:12.327+01:002009-09-24T19:47:12.327+01:00Happy Punctuation Day!
Between this blog and PMN,...Happy Punctuation Day!<br /><br />Between this blog and PMN, I'm in perfectionist heaven today. ;)Lydia Sharphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15328254761920829040noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519912440753252776.post-56320895344301509122009-09-24T19:40:15.571+01:002009-09-24T19:40:15.571+01:00You're right, Nicola, two hyphens together lik...You're right, Nicola, two hyphens together like that do look pretty nasty. But when I type two hyphens into Word it automatically converts them into an em-dash for me, so my mss never look like that.<br /><br />I assume, then, that you differentiate between hyphens and dashes by adding spaces either side of your hyphens. As an editor, I'd rather writers DID use two hyphens when they're indicating a dash, as it's far clearer what your intention is, and it leads to less confusion in the copyediting process. <br /><br />And Derek, you're right about the peace-and-love summer, you old hippy, you.Jane Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03411253302725735470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519912440753252776.post-45561970003730667652009-09-24T19:18:55.954+01:002009-09-24T19:18:55.954+01:00"Peace and love" would be hyphenated onl..."Peace and love" would be hyphenated only if used as an attributive adjectival phrase. Compare:<br /><br />"That was the summer of peace and love."<br /><br />"That was the peace-and-love summer."Derekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07161696211557610509noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519912440753252776.post-43284295445436270702009-09-24T19:16:48.996+01:002009-09-24T19:16:48.996+01:00Interesting post, Jane, but no way am I using TWO ...Interesting post, Jane, but no way am I using TWO hyphens like that, have to say it looks awful! (Like a technical manual). One will have to do, as usual, as I have no em-dash on my keyboard. (Mind you, my publisher does alter SOME of them by substituting commas!) However, I actually like dashes and have no problem with them when I'm reading a novel.Nicola Sladehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03076176253820195827noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519912440753252776.post-59720812204923989682008-09-15T21:45:00.000+01:002008-09-15T21:45:00.000+01:00If you want to submit a book to me you can now ema...If you want to submit a book to me you can now email me at "hprw at tesco dot net", putting "The Self-Publishing Review" in the subject field, and I'll send you an address to submit to.Jane Smithhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03411253302725735470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519912440753252776.post-65295372711447143712008-08-24T19:22:00.000+01:002008-08-24T19:22:00.000+01:00Igould, I think you were done and in your place I&...Igould, I think you were done and in your place I'd check to see if the American version of MS Word concurs with the versions that iUniverse's proofreader suggested. <br> <br>I'd prefer "noncommittal," "anti-war", "multi-millionaire", "long-haired," "late-night" and "peace and love". But what do I know? I'm only an editor.<br><br>I'd say that so long as you were consistent with your use of hyphens then you could have stuck to your guns, and safely ignored those particular comments.The Self-Publishing Reviewhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14338045898426993407noreply@blogger.com