tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519912440753252776.post398282726943750851..comments2023-06-12T17:08:36.320+01:00Comments on How Publishing <i>Really</i> Works: Anti-Plagiarism Day: Friday 17 JulyJane Smithhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03411253302725735470noreply@blogger.comBlogger48125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519912440753252776.post-56498229743171432332009-08-01T09:55:43.963+01:002009-08-01T09:55:43.963+01:00The writer whose work sparked off Anti-Plagiarism ...The writer whose work sparked off Anti-Plagiarism Day <a href="http://howpublishingreallyworks.blogspot.com/2009/07/anti-plagiarism-day-update.html" rel="nofollow">has now commented on my blog, here</a>. <br /><br />He feels that he's been misrepresented, so I've suggested (on my blog in the thread linked to above, and by email) that he put the story in question online somewhere, to give everyone who is interested the chance to compare it to Tania Hershman's story which it's alleged he copied. I've offered to host his story here, or to link to it if he posts it on his own blog. I look forward to his reply.Jane Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03411253302725735470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519912440753252776.post-47357461526496764742009-07-20T21:04:54.923+01:002009-07-20T21:04:54.923+01:00Julia, what an interesting example! Thanks.Julia, what an interesting example! Thanks.Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13770069472552779217noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519912440753252776.post-21386016136922419462009-07-20T20:45:36.436+01:002009-07-20T20:45:36.436+01:00Nope, not new - as this Ancient and disgruntled Ro...Nope, not new - as this Ancient and disgruntled Roman writer (Galen) shows:<br /><br />I was recently in the Sandalarium, the area of Rome with the largest concentration of booksellers, where I witnessed a dispute as to whether a certain book for sale was by me or someone else. The book bore the title: Galen the doctor. Someone had bought the book under the impression that it was one of mine; someone else—a man of letters—struck by the odd form of the title, desired to know the book’s subject. On reading the first two lines he immediately tore up the inscription, saying simply: ‘This is not Galen’s language—the title is false.’ Now, the man in question had been schooled in the fundamental early education which Greek children always used to be given by teachers of grammar and rhetoric. Many of those who embark on a career in medicine or philosophy these days cannot even read properly, yet they frequent lectures on the greatest and most beautiful field of human endeavour, that is, the knowledge provided by philosophy and medicine.<br /><br />.....my books have been subject to all sorts of mutilations, whereby people in different countries publish different texts under their own names, with all sorts of cuts, additions, and alterations.... When in the course of time some of these individuals died, their successors came into possession of the writings, liked them, and began to pass them off as their own.Julia Bohannahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04256768387861899456noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519912440753252776.post-85102109149839501802009-07-20T19:57:39.602+01:002009-07-20T19:57:39.602+01:00Anyone seen the Concord Free Press website? There ...Anyone seen the Concord Free Press website? There are other writers interested in alternate models:<br /><br />http://www.concordfreepress.com/<br /><br />Jane, why don't we assume I'm independently wealthy and leave it at that? I will never convince you, I'm sure, that I actually <i>prefer</i> not to eat my words - or feed my family from them.Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13770069472552779217noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519912440753252776.post-31105200176738881732009-07-20T19:07:06.296+01:002009-07-20T19:07:06.296+01:00I don't know what you do for a living, Lee, bu...I don't know what you do for a living, Lee, but let's assume that you're a bus driver.<br /><br />How would you feel if you spent all month driving passengers around, only to have the bus company pay your salary to some upstart who arrived at the bus station wearing a home-made uniform, and claiming that he'd been at the wheel of the number 207all month? Would you think that was OK? Would you feel that so long as the passengers reached their destination then it didn't really matter who got paid for it, or who was acknowledged to have driven that bus up and down the Uxbridge Road for all those tedious hours? Because I wouldn't: I need the money I earn from writing to do little things like feed my chlidren, pay the mortgage, and buy chocolate for my secret stash.Jane Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03411253302725735470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519912440753252776.post-2366577771840761172009-07-20T18:59:28.407+01:002009-07-20T18:59:28.407+01:00Well, Death of an Author is one thing, but death o...Well, Death of an Author is one thing, but death of ownership is quite another. The fact is that when you create something you own it and it's not for others to take it as their own without your permission. I think it's admirable and selfless that you'd be happy giving the stuff you've (I imagine) worked so hard to produce but that's your choice, and is certainly not one any other writer I know would make. And again, if that was taken from them, without their permission, no matter where it's been published (internet or otherwise) then it's wrong morally and legally: ie it's theirs (they own it) and not someone else's.Nik Perringhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07426321804560400335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519912440753252776.post-9181240302955534432009-07-20T18:34:12.680+01:002009-07-20T18:34:12.680+01:00Hi Nik, just noticed your comment. Maybe then I...Hi Nik, just noticed your comment. Maybe then I'd try to make it public - a blog post? - that I wrote the original. But the main thing for me is writing, and writing well, so it doesn't really matter if people know who I am. In fact, I'd rather they didn't, since I feel author info/bios/interviews tend to be obstructive.<br /><br />My only real reader, you see, is myself.<br /><br />Who knows how much is a lot of money? Most of us will never make more than a few dollars/pounds/Euros from our fiction, and I prefer my independence in any case.Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13770069472552779217noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519912440753252776.post-34726776112581704092009-07-20T18:27:58.663+01:002009-07-20T18:27:58.663+01:00When I say you can't criminalise what you can&...When I say you can't criminalise what you can't control, what I mean is that if thousands & thousands of users/readers/whoever are going to do something, then I'd consider it a new cultural trend, not a criminal act.<br /><br />Historically speaking, I believe plagiarism is a relatively new concept - though I'm not completely sure about this - and probably allied to the commodification of culture.<br /><br />In any case, I'm happy to make my writing freely available and spend far more time worrying about doing it well (for my own satisfaction) than whether someone might try to steal it.Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13770069472552779217noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519912440753252776.post-3300616717813727522009-07-20T18:09:06.564+01:002009-07-20T18:09:06.564+01:00But you wouldn't be being widely read - whoeve...But you wouldn't be being widely read - whoever's name's on the cover would be. And how much is a lot of money? I'd have said it was pretty black and white because it's you who should be credited, and paid for, for your work.Nik Perringhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07426321804560400335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519912440753252776.post-72446429742485707352009-07-20T18:07:04.463+01:002009-07-20T18:07:04.463+01:00How can you reconcile your feeling that you'd ...How can you reconcile your feeling that you'd been cheated with your view that it's OK for people to use each other's work? Where are the boundaries for you, Lee? I'm interested to know. <br /><br />And you missed my point about criminalisation: I wasn't arguing for or against using the internet to spread information; I was pointing out that your statement is fallacious. You wrote, <br /><br /><i>"You can't criminalise what you can't control." </i><br /><br />If you use that statement to argue that we can't stop plagiarism therefore we have to accept it, then we also have to allow the argument that we can't stop murder, rape or robbery, and therefore we have to accept it and not consider them a criminal act. Which is clearly wrong.Jane Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03411253302725735470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519912440753252776.post-7846166862263526622009-07-20T17:30:27.906+01:002009-07-20T17:30:27.906+01:00Hi Nik,if someone makes money from my work - a lot...Hi Nik,if someone makes money from my work - a lot of money - I'd feel cheated. Otherwise, I'd be honoured to be a model; and to be widely read.<br /><br />Jane, I don't feel it's nonsense at all. The internet is meant to disseminate - that's it's very purpose.Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13770069472552779217noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519912440753252776.post-80682328339279220742009-07-20T17:22:29.649+01:002009-07-20T17:22:29.649+01:00A question to Lee: You discover that someone's...A question to Lee: You discover that someone's taken your YA Fantasy story from the web, got a publisher, put out the book which has won awards and made the 'writer' loadsa money. How would you feel?<br /><br />NikNik Perringhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07426321804560400335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519912440753252776.post-79055309904475757602009-07-20T17:18:16.012+01:002009-07-20T17:18:16.012+01:00Lee, there's a big difference between being in...Lee, there's a big difference between being inspired by something, and plagiarism. <br /><br /><i>You can't criminalise what you can't control."</i> <br /><br /><br />If we followed your logic here, NOTHING could be criminalised: not murder, not rape, not stealing. We can't control what some people do, but to say that there's therefore no point in criminalising it, or announcing that it's wrong, is complete nonsense.Jane Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03411253302725735470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519912440753252776.post-57747796721590476402009-07-20T17:03:51.942+01:002009-07-20T17:03:51.942+01:00This is what got me commenting here, though as an ...This is what got me commenting here, though as an online writer I basically feel it's pointless to worry much about plagiarism. You can't criminalise what you can't control. And literature is rife with borrowing - when well done, you make it your own anyway (see TS Eliot's poetry, for example):<br /><br />http://mumpsimus.blogspot.com/2009/07/some-notes-on-burgers-daughter.htmlLeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13770069472552779217noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519912440753252776.post-82863045735708667482009-07-20T11:31:00.700+01:002009-07-20T11:31:00.700+01:00Still not convinced, Lee..although it's an int...Still not convinced, Lee..although it's an interesting point. Have you any examples?Julia Bohannahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04256768387861899456noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519912440753252776.post-34899352611889317452009-07-20T11:25:57.825+01:002009-07-20T11:25:57.825+01:00Intertextuality is a very effective form of remixi...Intertextuality is a very effective form of remixing - when well done. I am always talking of literary quality, by the way ... in any genre.Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13770069472552779217noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519912440753252776.post-34561887137380128992009-07-20T11:20:38.754+01:002009-07-20T11:20:38.754+01:00Remixing in the Arts if course is common Lee...aft...Remixing in the Arts if course is common Lee...after all there is little that is truly original, as we are influenced by so much. Music for example is very much the sum of what has gone before. But copying whole passages from someone else's work, or stealing a character with all their machinations, is not remixing at all. It shows a lack of imagination and at best is dull. At worst, intellectual theft. <br /><br />Nothing real to do with getting with the twenty first century..or being old-fashioned. Being decent, being proud of what you created..because it's YOURS. They are universal and timeless themes....<br /><br />Acknowledging influences and obsessions that might shape you as a writer, that's a whole different thing.........<br /><br />But you can't remix writing - a little bit of Henry James here....throw in some Will Self and a splash of Amis. It's not a film pitch, where conversations that begin: 'Well it's Terminator crossed with Legally Blonde' are common...simply because people in the industry need terms of reference. We are talking literary fiction, which needs to be of a certain quality to qualify for the genre....Julia Bohannahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04256768387861899456noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519912440753252776.post-20796416695758684362009-07-20T10:58:03.838+01:002009-07-20T10:58:03.838+01:00When is it plagiarising, when remixing - or even i...When is it plagiarising, when remixing - or even intertextuality?<br />Welcome to the 21st century, folks.Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13770069472552779217noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519912440753252776.post-34587455523486709902009-07-17T10:26:38.472+01:002009-07-17T10:26:38.472+01:00My post for Anti-Plagiarism Day has now appeared. ...<a href="http://howpublishingreallyworks.blogspot.com/2009/07/anti-plagiarism-day.html" rel="nofollow">My post for Anti-Plagiarism Day has now appeared.</a> Do please link to it wherever you can; and if you've been able to join in with your own anti-plagiarism post, add a comment with a link to your piece and I'll edit it into my main piece. Thank you!Jane Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03411253302725735470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519912440753252776.post-25773512635380627782009-07-16T17:28:12.436+01:002009-07-16T17:28:12.436+01:00I wasn't aware it was such a big problem - I&#...I wasn't aware it was such a big problem - I'll look forward to reading your post tomorrow.Jayehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13465914883794497173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519912440753252776.post-46032128164541413362009-07-09T14:51:04.442+01:002009-07-09T14:51:04.442+01:00Many happy greetings from the West Cork Lit Fest, ...Many happy greetings from the West Cork Lit Fest, where I'm taking the short story workshops, have fifteen wonderful 'students' (ha! they are just terrific writers!) and I am still reeling from meeting Annie Proulx briefly on Monday. <br /><br />I'd like to reassure people about working together. And will do that here, cos I want the post I do on Friday next to focus on the positives... so will strart now.<br /><br />We NEED to share our work. We NEED feedback. I dont know about you but I have days weeks months where I know for sure I cant write and have never been able to. It is all a chimera. <br /><br />And I NEED to be told to snap out of it because this bit is OK, this bit is bad but with work... this bit doesnt quite make sense. This character is emotionally engaging, but this one isnt. etc etc etc.<br /><br />More than that, I NEED to analyse the work of others. It feeds my knowledge of what works and what doesnt.<br /><br />And I like to think that although I ran up againt a man with a serious problem, (and thats his issue to resolve, if he can be bothered) the vast majority are good straight peeps who are treading this path with me. Honestly.Vanessa Gebbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09088301040602803489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519912440753252776.post-73681846295830480352009-07-08T13:09:55.334+01:002009-07-08T13:09:55.334+01:00What a wonderful and stimulating discussion. It...What a wonderful and stimulating discussion. It's such a tricky area, because by the very nature of sending unpublished work out to competitions, we writers are entrusting ideas to others. We all have to at some stage. I once sent a set of ideas for a major newspaper competition - the winner got to edit the paper for the day. I didn't win but two months later one of my ideas was used in an editorial. The idea was so specific and contained so much of the extra detail that I had added to the mix. that coincidence would have been very unlikely. <br /><br />But did I 'give the idea away?' by entering the competition? Could it ever be proven?<br /><br />I was also a witness to the intellectual 'rape' that Vanessa mentions - I don't think rape is too strong a word in this context. Instead of the body, you have the mind - a repository of ideas, hopes, original thought. To take any of those, you have to be dirty, ruthless, unashamed. It may be 'just writing' to some but for others who breathe and live the written word with pleasure, passion and gusto - it is much much more....<br /><br />Will try and blog on the day.Julia Bohannahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04256768387861899456noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519912440753252776.post-2139395165578498132009-07-08T12:44:02.110+01:002009-07-08T12:44:02.110+01:00Have tweeted this already and will certainly be bl...Have tweeted this already and will certainly be blogging about it on the day. Thanks for doing this.Tamsyn Murrayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08041502244181924265noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519912440753252776.post-49567705141622667372009-07-08T12:36:44.651+01:002009-07-08T12:36:44.651+01:00Thanks, all, for the promises of support. And I&#...Thanks, all, for the promises of support. And I'm glad that some of you are questioning this, and the issues of plagiarism vs access to quote and so on--it should make for some interesting debate.<br /><br />When you take part on the day do link to my post if you can and then links to your pieces should all appear at the bottom of mine; and either email me a link or leave a link in the comments. I'll write a link-filled summary of everyone's activity and edit it into my main piece at the end. <br /><br />And meanwhile, if you read any good pieces about plagiarism, do let me know (again, either by linking here or via email), and I can incorporate them into our Big List Of Links on the day.<br /><br />Phew. I think that's all!Jane Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03411253302725735470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519912440753252776.post-68088845998953583612009-07-08T01:08:51.410+01:002009-07-08T01:08:51.410+01:00Jane, funny I should read this after coming out of...Jane, funny I should read this after coming out of the Banksy exhibition in Bristol. Not only is it one of teh best shows I've ever been to, but my admiration for the man who inspired a central character in my latest boko was further increased. Relevant, of course, because of his defacing of the Picasso quotation about great art stealing.<br /><br />I am, I must say, 100% behind you, which will surprise many who know me. This is because I give my work away for free and in some cases choose to make it open source. The key word there is choose. <br /><br />But I can't help feeling ambivalent. I am unable to quote song lyrics when I need to because a band's MGMT won't get back on my permission request. I fear posting a photo of almost anything in case I'm infrnging someone's copyright. So I sometimes feel my work is compromised by the stridency of many of the antiplagiarisers. <br /><br />So it's a complicated issue. And i think where I take issue is always with turning a complicated issue into a simple one. In this case, though, I am more than willing to lay personal reservations aside, and will blog on the subject on July 17th, flying the flag for FACT, ACID, and all the other people who care about preserving a creative's IP. Jane, is there a place we can post links so everyone links to everyone else?Dan Hollowayhttp://www.yearzerowriters.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.com